Curse

NiknudStunod · May 13, 2005, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

This is ONE game not TWO games. Of course the PvP players are going to have to PvE

The way the pvp is in the game right now makes the casual gamers much less effective. If you were to take two equally skilled teams, make one team the casual gamer team and the other team the grinding team, over the course of a 100 matches the grinding team would win the clear majority. Even though they both had the same skill level the team with the runes, weapon parts and elite skills would come out on top because they had the edge and that is not what this game was advertised as.

This game is suppose to award skill over time played and it never will with this setup. This game is built around pvp and in order to do it effectively you have to put a timesink of 100's of hours just to unlock every characters skills, runes and weapon parts. This isn't the game I thought I was buying.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

But the PvE's dont have to play PvP

An UAS button is more trouble than it seems...

Well besides the leaving pre for post-serian anyway.

The point that I am trying to make is that PvP players shouldnt expect to be able to gain everything from PvP. When i first started learning about this game it was understood that PvP would be the end-game. I just feel that now PvP players are trying to to get everything for nothing (I know that it isent what all PvP want, but i still have that fear)

I did see a nifty idea about this though, I was that if you beat the gane once in PvE, you then will be able to unlock items/skills every 15 fame. That would still be grind in some peopel eyes, but a PvPer wouldnt have to go back through the PvE.

EDIT: A grinder team is not a casual team, and of course the grinder team win. They will be the most skilled at the game. Items give you an edge nothing more, but a better skilled team will win every time.

May 13, 2005, 06:15 AM // 06:15

I never even minded doing PvE to get some PvP stuff unlocked. I just didnt think it would require so much PvE to get PvP things unlocked

When/if PvP rewards are implemented alot of people will be happier. I dont want something for nothing, I want something for putting what I feel is well deserved time into a task.

Corwin_Andros · May 13, 2005, 06:24 AM // 06:24

The thing is once you get so far into the game with a PvE character and want a diversion with a bit of PvP, you are in the SAME arenas with the PvP only characters. So if there were an option for PvP only folks to unlock all skills without having to earn anything, the PvE ppl would be hosed.

And like I said earlier.. all the extras.. the runes.. the weapon parts.. and even a LOT of the skills, make little difference. A lot of it comes down to what skill you have at using what you have at hand.

Oh it can be annoying to go through part of the story repeatedly, but I find that the experience changes depending on the class you are playing. I know I have to constantly remind some of my guild members that their new Ele/Me or whatever can't run out and tank like their Wa/Mo could. It makes for a whole new learning curve everytime you go and change up your character.

This game and any other are what you make of them. ANet put together an awesome game. But not everyone is going to be happy with it all the time. There is no such game that pleases everyone ..anywhere. People will have their reasons and many will have something to do with "grinding".

It's impossible to have a game of this sort without grinding to some degree. At least in GW if you don't have everything unlocked for you, you can still play and be competitative and look for those minor tweaking items when you feel like it.

Zeru · May 13, 2005, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Saus's suggestion makes a lot of sense. The randomness in the SoC system is one of the major problems everyone has with it. Honestly, who likes doing the same mission repeatedly because your group kills the boss too fast or the boss isn't the right profession that he needs to be or he just plain doesn't use the skill. It's not fun and not adventurous, just boring and repetitive.

The flexibility of his system ties in perfectly with how GW is as a whole (the 8 skill slot for example). Lots and lots of choice.

I for one would much rather love to figure out the necessary skills I need, go do some random quests to get some skill points, and then check into one of the few skill trainers to find whatever I need rather than scrounging over half the world looking for the off-chance that I *might* be able to get Barrage one out of ten tries from that boss or going from town to town to locate some obscure quest that will get me Animate Bone Fiends as a reward.

The randomness is the big issue. It's not wanted and it's certainly not needed, as all randomness does is create grind. So take that out and make choice and ironically, skill at selecting skills important instead.

Bamelin · May 13, 2005, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Sausaletus Rex,

I see you put alot of thought into your post ... and I agree with almost everything you said mate.

Shadow_Avenger · May 13, 2005, 07:17 AM // 07:17

LoL,
Rant.

I thought they where combating your gripes by sorting out the pre build selections.
Hmm and Yes the Max pre build is limited in arena outpost so the majority of players would be the same.
Erm its just a game, and I'm sure they have already concidered everything that you rant / discuss about.
Erm did you really beleive the PR well folly you. Games never live up to the PR.
Like all game forums, the majority don't care or can't be bothered to post. The vocal few very very rarely get what they want.
If you have a genuinely good positive idea email the devs, If it's that good you may even get a job. As for original, hmm you'd be pushed as there is actually very very little in the industry that is original or new.

NiknudStunod · May 13, 2005, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I do not understand how giving pvp characters the ability to unlock there skills would hose pve characters. Everyone can unlock the skills in pvp and it has zero effect on the pve side of things. What you are saying is that the pve people deserve the advantage because they grind through the missions and quests. The only people this favors are the elitist power gamers who spend 100's of hours so they can dominate the end game. So instead of this game being different like the devs said it would, it is instead the same old mmorpg I have been playing all along. The whole skill over time spent is starting to fade into the past. I long for the days I could create a pvp character from scratch and choose any skills or if I needed a break I could pve for a while and not worry about unlocking runes or capturing that elite skill.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Rex's suggestions are awesome, and I would love to see them implemented.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 08:15 AM // 08:15

He's going to make Hall of Heroes by himself because of his awesome suggestion. I don't know how that works, but he just will.

varyag · May 13, 2005, 08:19 AM // 08:19

How does switching the secondary profession help against the GRIND of wanting to switch my primary? Please don't be silly and refer to the custom made as you know its disadvantages.

goldfinger · May 13, 2005, 10:12 AM // 10:12

This bothers me... I hate the concept of the "unlock all skills" idea... It was good for a test in in the beta but as soon as I bought the game I hoped like none other that you would have to work for skills, even for a pvp only charecter. Personally, taking away any and all rare reward makes for a loss of attatchment to a charecter, a drop in replay value, and the pve crowd getting chapped.

Sheep · May 13, 2005, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

This bothers me... I hate the concept of the "unlock all skills" idea... It was good for a test in in the beta but as soon as I bought the game I hoped like none other that you would have to work for skills, even for a pvp only charecter. Personally, taking away any and all rare reward makes for a loss of attatchment to a charecter, a drop in replay value, and the pve crowd getting chapped.

How does UAS for PvP chars effect PvErs? PvP chars are totally limited to PvP areas.

NiknudStunod · May 13, 2005, 10:39 AM // 10:39

The only people it would effect is the power gamer. The people who can spend the ungodly ammount of time to unlock all the skills so they can have a advantage over the casual crowd. I have said it several times and I will say it again. This game is suppose to be about skill and strategy not how many runs I can make to get a elite skill or how many times I can run through the pve story to unlock all the various character skills.

IMO the only replay value this game or any mmorpg has is the end game. If you can keep me coming back trying to create different class/skill combos in order to compete in pvp then I will. What I wont do is bring each and every one through the pve system just to use them in pvp. What will end up happening is players like me who refuse to grind will use there single character for pve and pvp and when it gets stale move on to something else. Its what I did from EQ to DAOC to WoW now to this. The only games I can say I have stuck with through this time were fps games and rts games and most of those have been with me since mid to late 90's.

Shadow_Avenger · May 13, 2005, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

This bothers me... I hate the concept of the "unlock all skills" idea... It was good for a test in in the beta but as soon as I bought the game I hoped like none other that you would have to work for skills, even for a pvp only charecter. Personally, taking away any and all rare reward makes for a loss of attatchment to a charecter, a drop in replay value, and the pve crowd getting chapped.

Well said, and also I am sure the Devs actually wanted the game to last more than 2 weeks.
If everything was unlocked, thats how long the game would last for 90% of the gamers. With only the Hardcore PvP'ers staying. The the casual gamer would not play PvP at all then as there would be not point in playing against them as the odds would be stacked against you. With the hardcore PvP, anal retentive "I know every skill and how to use it dominating".
This is what would happen as there is one server not thousands of different ones with different levels of play. You would end up with the Uber PvP'er dominating the arenas. Having to work for skills,
A, slows this down.
B, Prolongs the life span of the game.
C, Evens the playing field in the long run as it gives the more casual player time to adjust and learn to use skill more effectively.

Reading these comment, 1 thing has to be said, is the most opinionated are the Beta players. The rest of us can just compare to other similar games, and to be honest GW is near the Top of the Ladder when compared to what the rest of the market has to offer.
This is no Longer the beta and sure things were easier in Beta as they want you to actually TEST stuff, not just play. Now they want you to play a game that lasts as I stated above more than 2 weeks.
If the lifespan of the game was short, you can bet your bottom dollar that the support would be pulled and the game would run for 1year maybe 1 and a half tops.
Now take heart the Devs know what they are doing otherwise they wouldn't be Devs they would be whining forum Junk's like most of the posters here. (no offence intended.

)
If you have an Idea that will change the world for a better place, sweet, post it, email it, spam Devs across the world with it.
But other than that Always remember places like this are full of hot air, and very very rarely actually acheive / solve anything.

Madjik · May 13, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deagol

I think making *two* changes would saisfy both camps

1. Bring back the "unlock all skills (and items)" button.
2. Create special tournaments for only RP characters.

The current solution go against the stated goal, to have Guild War a game you play to have fun, rather than a game you play to prepare to have fun, at least for PvP players.

The competitive missions reserved for RP characters would be so *we* can compete with people on equal terms, i.e. people who have build their characters themselves.

The PvP missions should still be open to RP characters, because why not?

I dont generally play PvP, and I get the feeling im going to regret entering this thread, so im gonna ask a little question instead. Wouldnt the above statement from the beginning of this thread be an acceptable solution?

If its a button, then that leaves the choice up to the individual player. Im not so sure about creating a seperate tournament ring specifically for the RP PvP'er, especially since this game is dedicated to skill, all the more gloating rights for the RP PvP'er to go against a PvP only class char and win, but I digress...

If you add a button and leave it up to the individual player weather to unlock it or not then why wouldnt this work for both sides of the spectrum? Add a confirm message, and/or make the choice per character; meaning everytime you make a PvP only char, you have to press the button to unlock the content for that char alone....

Am I missing somthing here? Would there be somthing seriously wrong with that? I seek enlightment.

NiknudStunod · May 13, 2005, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

If everything was unlocked, thats how long the game would last for 90% of the gamers. With only the Hardcore PvP'ers staying. The the casual gamer would not play PvP at all then as there would be not point in playing against them as the odds would be stacked against you. With the hardcore PvP, anal retentive "I know every skill and how to use it dominating".
with different levels of play. You would end up with the Uber PvP'er dominating the arenas. Having to work for skills,
A, slows this down.
B, Prolongs This is what would happen as there is one server not thousands of different ones the life span of the game.
C, Evens the playing field in the long run as it gives the more casual player time to adjust and learn to use skill more effectively.

This statement alone makes no sense. These same "anal retentive players", are already pvping with the skills they want. Not only are they doing it long before the casual gamer even gets close to the arenas but most are doing it with the full skill sets of there choosen classes because they are hardcore pvpers that wouldn't settle for anything but the best. These players have already grinded well over 100 hours and are now sitting pretty in HoH and Guild matches. I can guess this because I am not a power gamer but I am still at 20 with most of my skills and a lot of runes and hafts unlocked.

Now instead of giving everyone the unlocked skills option you have the best of GW getting better in pvp while the casual gamer is lfg for LA quests.

To the poster above me

There is nothing wrong with that option. The same option was given in BWE and it worked great. Those that wanted to pve got to do that and those that wanted to pvp got to do there thing. Giving this option takes nothing away from 99% of the gamers. The only people it effects are the power gamers who enjoy having advantages over other players because they can put in much more time.

Shamblemonkee · May 13, 2005, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Would you truly be happy with an Unlock all skills button? Wouldn't the next argument be for a unlock all items button?

There's a difference between going out playing the game and happening upon that rare item that might could give you an edge, and having every weapon / armor set and skill available to pick and choose from. That surely would put PvE people at a disadvantage.

FYI: I would be ok with PVP characters being able to unlock all normal skills - i think they should still have to work for elites - possibly after reaching a certain rank to negate them having to do PvE if that is not what they want to do?

NiknudStunod · May 13, 2005, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamblemonkee

Would you truly be happy with an Unlock all skills button? Wouldn't the next argument be for a unlock all items button?

There's a difference between going out playing the game and happening upon that rare item that might could give you an edge, and having every weapon / armor set and skill available to pick and choose from. That surely would put PvE people at a disadvantage.

FYI: I would be ok with PVP characters being able to unlock all normal skills - i think they should still have to work for elites - possibly after reaching a certain rank to negate them having to do PvE if that is not what they want to do?

This game was never suppose to be about time spent grinding for skills and items. The game was suppose to be about the skill you brought to a match and the strategies you used to win. Right now its about the time you put into the pve and not how well you do in pvp.

PvE characters can make pvp characters to. They would be at the same level as everyone else in the game they just can't use there pvp characters to pve with.

Madjik · May 13, 2005, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

This game was never suppose to be about time spent grinding for skills and items. The game was suppose to be about the skill you brought to a match and the strategies you used to win. Right now its about the time you put into the pve and not how well you do in pvp.

PvE characters can make pvp characters to so they would be on the same ground as everyone else in the game.

This is what I thought. I keep hearing that the game is about skill and stratagy and was the whole justification for the lv 20 cap. If that is indeed the case, whats the problem with giving the individual player the choice?